Celestin's Story
S: So to start off, can we talk about where you grew up? Can you tell me about your home?
C: Yeah. Briefly, my home—I was born in Democratic Republic of the Congo, which was known previously as Zaire. And I was born in Zaire which is known currently as Democratic Republic of the Congo. But because of the war, I flee to Uganda. But initially I was born in Bunagana. But after the war broke out, I had to flee to Uganda. I was born in—I am the first born of the six children. I have five siblings. We are all settled in Pittsburgh —only one who is—who shifted into Kentucky, the one who follows me. But we are all born six. Thank you.
S: So, when you had to flee to Uganda, everyone went—your whole family went together?
C: No, we were separate. It’s me and my dad who crossed together, but the rest of my siblings crossed with my mom. And it was unfortunate that my mom got injured during the war. But right now she’s lame because of the war in Democratic Republic of Congo. But one of my siblings was born in Uganda, the last born.
S: Okay. So can you tell me a little bit about when the war broke out? What do you think were the reasons for that, and how did it affect you?
C: Yeah, like before the war starts, we are all staying together with good life living. But later when the war broke out, it was in 1996, we started sleeping in the bush. Like, you’d hear a certain village was attacked, they burn the houses, they burn the people inside the houses. We kept sleeping outside almost seven months in the bush. We leave the homes and go and sleep in the bush, hiding ourselves. But it was in 1996, around November, when things became worse. I had gone in the market with my dad. We heard gunshots, bombs, people were killed, and we had to cross—we took three days in order to cross to Uganda, but later after like three days when we journey in Uganda, that’s when—because by that time I was with my dad, then my mom with other four siblings, crossed in different ways. So we did not cross together. But otherwise the life was not effective because we couldn’t know that they are still alive and also they didn’t believe that we are alive. Because for as we are going in the market with my dad and it was hard to know, like, the program. By that time it was unfortunate, we didn’t have phones, like, to communicate to each other. It was by God’s grace that we had to meet again in the transit center where we are supposed to do the registration when we are in the camp. So as you cross, like, there was UNHCR—the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees—we had government of Uganda, Uganda Red Cross Society, were coming—refugees coming in. So that’s how we managed to meet each other again after a period of three to four days.
S: Oh, okay. So not very long.
C: Yeah, it did not take us long to meet again, but because men and women have different lines. So when you are registering, they don’t mix them up. So it was, like, we are on a line and me, I saw my siblings and my mom. I told my dad I am seeing them on the other side. So we are happy by that time, we came together after three days. Yeah.
S: How old were you at that time?
C: I was twelve.
S: Oh goodness, okay. Do you have good memories from before the war broke out, back in the Congo?
C: Yeah. I was schooling. I think I can remember we used to go to school, we play soccer with other young people where we are living together. I used to have many friends. We used to read books. Our teachers, I like them because they were good teachers. They used to teach us. Yes, I remember that moment was good. But when the war broke out, I think things changed. Then we became refugees. But otherwise before the war, everything was well organized. Yeah. Because we would even play inter-schools, like you get one public school plays against another public school. So you go to different schools and play soccer. Maybe like, inter-villages, like South versus West, you go like West, or maybe North. Maybe young people go and play versus others. So I think life was not bad. But when the war broke out, things became worse, and nobody could resist. Because we resist around seven months sleeping in the bush, then things became worse and we had to cross the border and come to Uganda.
S: What did you take with you when you crossed into Uganda?
C: We went empty-handed. We did not go with anything.
S: Just the clothes on your back?
C: Yeah, yes. Like the way I’m putting on today. If anything happens, I just move like this. Nothing to take.
S: So you don’t have any photos of your family from before?
C: No, I don’t.
S: How long did you stay in the refugee camp in Uganda?
C: Uh, before going to the big refugee camp, we had six months in the transit center. Like, in the transit center—this is called the transit center because you stay, like, they have to give you a plastic sheeting. You live together, you have water there. They give you each kind of relief. You get together from the transit center. We stayed there for six months. Then after six months, some people gave up. Some people died during that transitions time because they lack medication, no school there. Then later after six months we are taken—I can remember, it was May 9, 1997—we entered in a big settlement. It is called a settlement because they provide, like, small land where you can plant tomatoes, onions, maybe vegetables. That’s why it’s called a settlement. So the settlement—I said we entered that settlement in May 9, 1997—and we stayed almost twenty-two years.
Yeah. So that’s where life becomes hard. From that May 9, 1997, we started living in the big refugee camp, which they normally call settlement, from 1997 up to 2018 when I came to Pittsburgh. For the life there, it was really really worse. Because many people lost their lives. Many people did not go ahead with the school. Because we had by that time, we had 23,000 refugees in the same camp, in the same refugee camp, and you find two health centers serving 23,000. We have one pre-K school serving 23,000. We have one high school serving 23,000. It’s not easy and I think it was 42 kilometers squared. So now I used to walk around 18 miles to go to school. And it was a hard life. Some of the people could not go ahead and study. Some people gave up. Some people—you find other marriages taking place because I think many people did not try to cooperate with the system and again some people from French-speaking country then go to English-speaking country. So it was not easy and other people—their parents, vulnerables, they cannot raise the funds to take them to different schools. There are other schools, like private schools, but it’s not easy to attend that when you don’t have money. Remember, we are refugees by then. Nothing you have. No money. No clothes. When you are sick, no medication. With the help of the United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees and some implementing agencies, yeah, of course they have been trying to do something, but of course not enough because they don’t have sometimes the fundings. I remember, like after long period of time, we as young people, we came together because we say “we have to be the solution to our problems.” I remember we started a youth group which I still recognize right now. Because to become who I am it’s because of that group and I said earlier when I was leaving Africa to United States—even if I’m not able, I will make sure that I advocate about this youth group. It helped me a lot to achieve some of my goals. And--
S: Was it a religious youth group?
C: Yeah, it is called COBURWAS International Youth Organization to Transform Africa. But it was started by youth group where I was belong. I belong to—and up to now, I still recognize myself as a member in the United States. But this youth group has played a big role to the community of Kyangwali Refugee Settlement, because many students have gotten chance to study through the help of this youth group which started as a youth group—later it registered as community-based organization, and reaching to the time it has registered as a national organization and now it is worldwide. I know it have got a license, it’s now incorporated in the United States, I believe it’s registered in Colorado right now. Yeah. With some of the help, we meet different people, talk about it, and people take interest, like special students come to see what they do, mostly. Yeah, that’s where we managed to raise some of our fellow refugees, young people. Me, I was helped by one of the ladies who came to see, like, what CIYOTA does—that’s COBURWAS—maybe I just write it down as you have time, you will go through their story and you will understand more about it. And for people who may be able to know and to understand more, still they will contact people who can speak maybe more than me and make people understand what they have done. For this time as I’m talking right now, even the UNHCR recognized them because they have done a lot contributing to the lives of refugees. Yeah, connecting some of the students. Some of them—they come, they study from here. But of course, with the intention of giving back to the community.
Because the communities down there is suffering. Refugees in the camps. Like, right now, I know there are one hundred plus. Like Uganda only is carrying 1.3 [million] refugees. So that’s too much. Whereby you can find, like, when they put the ban of the United States not receiving more refugees—I don’t know where they are going. I don’t know how they will survive. Because, I myself, I have my in-laws there. My brother in-laws, my sister in-laws, my father, my mother in-laws, they are all still in Africa. They have their cases, but they have never gone anywhere because of too much back, always. Nothing happening to them. So you find we are worried of how the life continues, and yet more refugees are coming in from Democratic Republic of Congo. Up to now, people are still fighting. People—more refugees coming. So life is not easy as I talk right now. When you go to different countries, you find people are suffering. Not only Congo but also other refugees. As I talk to you know, I remember South Sudan is in trouble. Many refugees are coming in. As I talk to you now, many people from Syria, they are now fleeing from Syria to different countries. So it’s not only Congo, it’s not only Sudan, not Syrians, but different refugees coming from worldwide. So when I see like all that one happening, when you go on Google, you go on the news, you find a lot of things happening, many people becoming refugees. But when I came to America, I think last year around May, from December 2017—very many people have come from Democratic Republic of Congo. Because I was working with one organization which is called Action Africa Help, and it was one of the main implementing agents of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. I was working on assessing on malnutrition, especially for pregnant mothers and young children under five. Almost all the children were malnourished. I don’t know how they are surviving right now. Because when you see a mother, like a pregnant mother, lactating mothers, the children under five, all they are malnourished. So you find all—like when you see the malnutrition which is you find it is high rate, and that is where people find the young children, the pregnant mothers, the lactating mothers, they are all losing their lives. And you find it is all too much.
S: Did your wife give birth to all of your children in the camp? In the settlement?
C: Yes, yes.
S: Can you tell me a little bit about what that was like?
C: Yeah. I think for my wife, the firstborn of course—Baraka Zaire—was born in 2010. I remember it was July 17. Yeah. By that time, for her, she delivered my baby at the health center. It was not bad, I think because I was mostly attached to the health centers and I was working maybe in the health centers. Sometimes some people they are lucky. I call myself, I’m a lucky man. Because I’m mostly have that chance of working in different places and you find someone, like, maybe you work in the hospital, then your person comes where you work so not much fear. And the health workers always attend to the person because they know someone is behind that. But my wife did not suffer like the way I see other people suffer. For her, she was—for all the four children who were born in the same hospital and health center—but not big trouble there.
S: But a lot of people can’t give birth in the health center.
C: Yeah, because they—some people, they don’t have access to the health center. Because you remember, as I said before, 42 kilometers squared. They travel from their home, you go to the health center, it’s very far. Because you don’t have the transport. Other people, they don’t have transport. They deliver even on the way, maybe as they go and they get tired on the way then they deliver from the way. So other people, they don’t even have to go because there is no means. They feel they are—they lost hope. So that’s how things happens. But thank God before my children all were born in the hospital. Yeah. I didn’t have any trouble with any of my children. All of them, they were born in good situation.
S: Celestin, how long did it take from when you first applied to come to the United States—from that initial application—to actually coming?
C: Oh, it takes awhile. For me, I remember I did—in order to prepare my case to be submitted to the USCIS for my interview and security checks, it took almost three years. Because I remember in 2017, that’s when I met with ARISE Africa. It was around August—if not August, then September of 2017. No, July—August—somewhere around there. Because September I think I had met already my young boy was born in September 2017. 2017? No, 2016. Yeah.
Yeah, 2016. You see, I did my ARISE Africa interviews. Those people who prepared the cases to submit to the United States. It’s like an agent working for USA under USCIS. So they work, they prepare cases, then they hand them to the government, then that’s when the government comes in to interview people. So they prepare it in 2016, I think around August—July, August—because I remember we have a very big number by that time. Then we did our ARISE Africa, they prepared it. Then we are supposed to do like, our USCIS interview in February 2017. It was cancelled. The ban start from there. Yeah, when the President, they say no, I don’t want refugees, any more refugees. So that was one year ban. So we did not have the chance, 2017. The whole of it, maybe lucky people could come one by one. But the people who have done previous USCIS interview and security checks and were cleared. So that’s those people who had to fly back in 2017. Few people I think, I guess.
S: How did you feel when you heard about the ban? Were you angry, or disappointed?
C: Oh, oh. Because I was ready for USCIS. Like, I went—when you are in the camp, always they update like when are you going. For us, we had even the appointments. All of us. Many people, around one thousand cases, had gone for the appointment. And a meeting—they call you, like UNHCR—because I was working for UNHCR as an interpreter—so they called all members who are going to have their cases with USCIS. Then they called us to go for the meeting. Then we had that appointment that day, so we were at the office. I was there also, very many. We start now, at the time they said nine. Goes to ten. Ten thirty. Eleven. Now they—UNHCR officials come out to brief people about what is happening. So we are expecting to start, like, I think around February 2017. Then we see these guys coming out, say, “We don’t have good news for you today.” I think everybody some shed tears. “We have bad news today, not good news for you.” People start shedding tears, other people, stronger hearted, they had listened. They say, “We are telling you that because of the new President, this time, no more refugees going until they harmonize. Then, maybe in the future you may be able to travel.” That year ended, well, they briefed us, they said, “Go, do—if you had some activities you are doing, try to do. If you had children in schooling, let them keep schooling. Then, pray to God, maybe he will answer you. If you are going to America, if God has planned for that, you will still go. But we don’t have the solution.” Then we went home, I think many people were broken heart. They didn’t have, like, any more energy, trust, that they can make it to America. Including myself.
Then we went for the full year 2017, we sat home, did our activities, we had given up. Then like in 2017 around October, November, I think around October, November, we had the delegate, I think from the US, she came up to our refugee settlement in Kyangwali. We had meeting with that lady—it’s because I don’t recall the name. She say, “I’m the delegate from the United States of America. I work”—I think she said she works with Senate or something like that, but related to refugees—she said, “We are back in the system and we are assuring you that the process by next year, 2018, the process keeps on going like it was before.” So I think everybody walked out—and I was the interpreter of the day, it was lucky by that time, though they didn’t allow me—because when you are interpreting you can’t ask questions—so I was the one interpreting for the day. So the lady with some people from ARISE Africa—now, we also had another person from the Embassy of the United States in Kampala. Like, around 6 people. And the UNHCR High Commissioner for Refugees had representative from Kampala also, from the head office, had come to join us. So they briefed the people who were there. They did not invite everyone because we had small boardroom. But we had a good number. Like, so if you get a message you need to tell, like, the [unintelligible] that everything is going to be fine. So that’s when now the [unintelligible] comes in, like in 2018, now, they call us again for USCIS interviews. So people go for USCIS interviews, do interviews, then the lucky people like me, the same year after like three months I was in the US. So--
S: How did you feel when you found out it had been approved? That your case was approved?
C: I was very excited to come to America. Because I had—because my siblings and my parents had come 2016, September. So all of them, they came in the month of September 2016. So, like, the youngest boy was born when they had left. The last time Flavia delivered the young Jackson, the young boy, me—I had gone to escort my parents, they were flying—one of my brother, the one who follows me, the one who shifted to Kentucky—but he was here initially, he was living within Pittsburgh, but he shifted to Kentucky—I went to escort him, then I had to wait like, since my parents are flying and my two sisters, the last born and the one—they follow each other—they said they are flying like Sunday night. I said, now since it is Thursday, Friday, now Sunday night, I think I need to wait. I escort them, I shouldn’t go back to Kyangwali in the settlement and come back because that’s too much money. So I said no, I have to wait until they leave. So like that Friday when I’m still waiting after when my brother, the one who follows me, had left—Gerald—then I had the phone call from her that she’s already going to the hospital, she’s going to deliver. I said, “Oh—it’s too much stressing.” Now, I can’t go back to Kyangwali. Then I said, “Go do this work.” I had to try to call, it was around three o’clock afternoon. So I say, “Okay, safe journey.” Like in three hours they call me back, “Ah—we have a baby boy.” I say, [unintelligible]. So life keeps going on. Like, Sunday, after Sunday, then Monday I go back to Kyangwali, then we proceed—continue—with the life. So otherwise I was very excited to come to the United States and I think what I’m worried of is my in-laws who are still there, because there is no hope now since the ban keeps going on. I don’t know if they will be able to. But they have their cases. I try to submit with Jewish Family and Community Services, which was my agent—which has settled me in Pittsburgh through IS [Immigration Services]. So I don’t know what will happen maybe in the future. Maybe they will come, I don’t know. It will depend up to the President, because he is still the chief. Otherwise, life was not easy up to now. I know I’m just looking at the pictures of if I remember, I put myself in that shoe of the people back there, I don’t see any life there.
S: Do you think life is easy now for you?
C: Not very easy, but at least--
S: Easier?
C: At least I have what I need, I guess. Not ever to the extent of, like, maybe I can sit down. But with the life I’m living right now, it’s better compared to the life I was living.
S: What kind of support did you have when you got here—to find a job, to find friends?
C: Yeah, when I get here the Jewish Family and Community Services, they try to resettle me in this place. This is my first place when we came in June 2018. I kept this house, up to now, still living in this house. But they told me there was some money from the government, yeah, they paid for almost three months. Then they had other programs, they earn you from. So they can pay like two months rent. Then you start with new life. They helped me to get a job, and I’m okay with the job. I first went to the first job, but because it was far, I didn’t keep it. Now, where I am working—TruFood, it is good. I like the job, no problem.
S: What are you doing for work right now?
C: I’m machine operator right now at TruFood. But because our line is down, I do different activities. But still I go and maybe if they need someone to help on the machine, maybe anything they want with the machine, because I’m aware of—with the knowledge I have with the machine, I can still go and operate. But because we are many operators, because one of the lines is down, so we can’t all be on the machine. So we do different activities. Sometimes we do palletizing, maybe sometimes we can do parking, because we can’t all be on the machine. Or maybe one person is not there, we go and act like that. Everything is good, I think there is no problem.
S: What is a job that you would like to have in the future?
C: For sure in the future I need to do, like, community services work. Because I feel in me, like, helping different needy people. But with the work I am doing right now it cannot permit me to go, to do what I need. Because as I was saying before, you know people out there, they have a lot of problems and they need people who have knowledge of community services, like, guiding them to do that. But when you go and these things over machine when we don’t have the knowledge of community services. I think it is hard to do that work. But I need to—if I get the chance of getting the school, I think I need to study and do, like, community services related thing. Because back in Africa I did project planning and management. And I would like to do that thing. Like, make it broad so that I see if I have project I can—what should I do, what do I need, like—what do I do to help the community? What should—what do I need, or if I need—like the way I was saying you, that youth group which helped me, which it grow up to the level of the organization. Like, what me—who is in America, what did I contribute toward this group? Because it has helped me a lot, to be whom I am. It’s because of them. Now, what should I do? Like, me? What next? Or what should I tell the world? What can the world do towards this group? Because they still have a lot of challenges, they still need help, they still need support, they need financially, they need connections. Now, am I doing the right thing to connect to them? Am I doing the right thing? Am I having financially? They need a lot. Right now as I talk to you now, they are constructing a youth center which they needed to raise seven thousand US dollars. They have nice students, they have good place for learning, but they don’t have—they are raising money for toilets. They don’t have toilets, which is very important. And in life, if you don’t have the toilet, then you are having nothing. Even if you have knowledge, without where you can use yourself, then you are wasting time. So I think in the future, I don’t need to continue to do the same job. Mostly what I need is to be connected to different people, different companies, different organizations. Maybe different schools, so that everything’s going to be okay in the future.
S: Have you heard of the expression “the American Dream”? It’s the idea that if you work hard then you can do anything you want? Do you know that idea?
C: I don’t know yet.
S: Do you believe that’s true?
C: Yeah, I do.
S: So what’s your dream for life in America? What would you like to create for your children?
C: Especial my children, I need them to be extraordinary. Like, be exposed to the world and do better than what I made—what I have never done, they should be the one to do it. If maybe I were thinking to be someone in the future and I did not reach that goal, I think most of my children should be able to do that. Because if I can’t do it, then my children should do it. Yeah. Like, maybe I dreamed to be a doctor. If I did not be a doctor, my children—at least some of them—should be doctors. Yeah. If I needed to be someone in the top officials in maybe government—if I did not do it, then my children must do it. Yeah. If I was supposed to be maybe a teacher or a lecturer at the university—if it was my dream and I didn’t achieve it, my children must be.
S: How have your children adapted to life in Pittsburgh?
C: Oh, they are doing well. I wish they were here. You talk to them. They would be able to express themselves, I know. They could tell you what they need to do, like, in the future when they’re on their own. They know what to do, they know. As I used to hear my teachers, most of them, they used to tell me—if you are positive in mind and you groom your children the same, you are positive—they also grow in that—they build on your foundation, especial when you tell them “You can do this, you can be this, you can become this.” So they will grow up when they know, “I can be this. I can do this. There is nothing impossible, everything is possible.” They believe that.
So I think that’s how we should always teach our children to be. To excel. Not to fail in the future, or in life. That’s what I believe. And I don’t believe that I fail. I always succeed. I also succeed always. I believe in myself. With the help and connections which we get especially through—like, the way you came—you are here. I never know tomorrow, connecting me somewhere—“Celestin, go somewhere. Do ABCD.” So when Celestin go somewhere, do something, maybe will be productive. Then this one is another road you create. Maybe. You never know. Today you are here. But you feel like you want to study more about refugees, maybe you say, “Celestin, maybe can we move to different place, like maybe another state? Can we go together to Africa and learn more about Africa?” I go and learn about refugees. Yeah, say, “Welcome.” We move. You learn. Maybe in the future, connect to these people, connect to this group. Yeah. Many university students want to learn different stories with refugees. My story may not be like the one of [my friend] Bahati. My story may not be like the one of [my wife] Flavia, because we did not flee in the same transit, in the same year. So for her, she fled in 1998, when I came—I went—I crossed in 1996. So two years later. I think ninety-nine, ninety-eight I think. So yeah, it might be different for me. What I saw, she might not have seen them. Me, I saw many people die. I passed, like, dead people, many. And the blocks of the houses could be, like, bombed them, they are down. People die from there. Like, the customs, they—on that Tuesday, they put it down when we are seeing so many people died there in the offices. So, other people, they might not have seen it. So it was not easy. Many people died in the camp with hunger, without treatment. Some people, they become isolated, nobody is taking care because they don’t have relatives. So you find in the camp many people. Everything is mess. So it is different story from me and other people. So, like, when you meet other people, that’s when you learn. Yeah, this is true. This is reality. This is now. What should we do? That’s maybe the question. Like, next.
S: Do you feel safe here in America, in Pittsburgh?
C: So far, I think I’m safe. Though people here—I think, I don’t know if all the places are like this, but sometimes you find many things occurring. Many people you hear, like, “So-and-so was shot.” I don’t know why. Like, for us—before, we used to think, in America, nobody can shoot you like this. But here, I think it’s common too. With youth, I think. Someone shooting it’s during the evening always. But here, no, what you hear—“So-and-so was shot.” Was it yesterday—Wednesday? Today is Saturday. If not Wednesday, Thursday I think. It is Thursday, Wednesday. Someone was shot here. And the first night—the first two days I arrived here, they killed someone over there. Here, on this block. Ah! I was shocked by that. I spent two days without sleeping. I said, “Now, which America is this?” I come, I know, and the war has stopped, no killing, now—two days here, they kill someone. Ah. I was from work at the Amazon, and I found the police gathered over there. Ah! They said there was someone who was shot the other side. [Redacted] Street, the other side. I said, “What was that?” I didn’t know. I had to know it like the following morning. I didn’t know that would happen. So it is always dangerous, I guess. To hear that thing has happened. Yeah. We fear, but I think they can’t shoot you for any—like, someone can’t—like, I think it is hard to find me in my house and shoot me. Maybe there is some misunderstanding that they have. But they do it, so. That’s where, maybe, some fear comes. Because you never know, anything can happen. But I think, not like Africa. They come like they kill—like if it was Africa, they shoot one person, I think, all of Crafton Heights, everyone should be in for it. If they come, maybe it’s between me and you, here, they just see me and you only. The rest of there, no concern. But in Africa, what I know—if someone has said, “There is a gun shot somewhere,” then the whole village—the whole community—shoo—they sweep you all. They take you. You have to answer that. But here, I think, not the same. That’s another difference I can see. Yeah. But otherwise, I don’t think there is a big problem from my side, since I have never faced any.
S: Have you noticed racism here?
C: I don’t think, because I don’t see it that way. Maybe other places, but I have never experienced that.
S: So you feel like you’re treated well by the community?
C: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No problem.
S: Okay. What do you think Americans should know about your home, about Africa?
C: They should know exactly that people are suffering. They are not okay. Because this, I think—really, if they feel mercy, the people, especially those who are in the camp, in the settlement, they have to help them. If there is really help, they have to help them. Because their life is not easy. And when you are—they say people have spent twenty, twenty-two years, twenty-three years, eighteen years, fifteen years in the camp. Some people were born in the camp, they don’t know what is happening in their country. They don’t even know where they came from. Now, where they expect these people to go? And what do you think they could do? If there is room for them, they should welcome them. Because otherwise they will be suffering too much. And also to get, like, local integration. It’s hard sometimes. You are in the refugee camp, so in order to be local integrated, it takes long. They put the limit. Some people, they fail to. If they call refugees, or if they can join local integration, or if they can be self-repatriation, voluntary repatriation. And that voluntary repatriation, you patriate back home, because the situation is stable. But when the situation is not stable, how do you repatriate back? You go back because the situation is fine. If the situation is not okay, you can’t go back. So at least they should know that out there, people are crying. Africa is only tears. Is nobody who is safe in Africa, especially where I came from. I don’t know more about other places, but where I came from I know everybody is crying and life is no good. So if there is any support, anything they can feel like they can do, those who may be able to read and listen, they can try to help them. You never know—these people, they may also become productive, though they are refugees. Other people, they believe refugees have no say, have nothing to do. But I know they can do something if they are given room to do. Yeah. Many people, many refugees have done a lot. And it’s not because they can’t do it, but they don’t have the opportunities. If they have opportunities, they can do it. I believe that. Yeah. Other people, they believe refugees can’t do anything, but I believe—me, I believe they can do something if they are given room to do it. Yeah.
S: Do you hope to return to the Congo to visit one day, if it’s safe?
C: Ah, maybe if I am—if I become a citizen, maybe that’s when I’ll be able to visit. But when you are a permanent resident, I don’t think you are even allowed to go. But in the future, maybe. Like, I know when you become a citizen, you are free to move anywhere. So by that time, maybe I can think of it and I go. But right now, I don’t have the idea of going there. Maybe, like, since my in-laws are in the camp, if I have a way and if I have my green card, I have the travel document, I can pay them a visit. But in Congo, no. I guess, Congo, no.
S: Do you want to become a citizen?
C: Ah—that’s my prayer. That’s my wish. Yeah, one day I should be.
S: What does that mean to you, for you to be able to call yourself an American?
C: I think it means a lot, because I will be able to—I would be free, I can do anything. Like I can—if you become an American, I think you are free, you can even access to different services, you are not supposed—you are not eligible to. But I think if you are a green card holder, you are not there—some things you are not entitled to. But when you are a citizen, there are other things you are able to access, which a green card holder cannot. So you can be always, I think, you are proud of becoming a citizen because there are other additional services you get from different from what you have been getting as a refugee. As a permanent resident. So I think it is different.
S: Do you still think of yourself as a refugee?
C: Yeah, I count myself as a refugee because I don’t have any document to say that I’m maybe—I’m not yet a permanent resident. I have just applied the permanent resident. So before it is approved, then I’m still called myself a refugee.
S: So, do you think you’ll always think of yourself as a refugee? Or once you get your green card, you’ll think of that as the past?
C: No, I will be at least adjusting on my status. So I don’t think that I will be a refugee by then. I’m somewhere by now.
S: Okay. [both laugh] Can you tell us about maybe a good memory, a very memorable part of your journey to America?
C: Oh, yeah. I remember it was, though it was somehow—it was the first time to be in a plane, so a long journey with children—five—four children. I remember it was around three o’clock, we’re supposed to fly at eleven, African time. So it was around three o’clock, so we had to board the bus from the transit center, prepared by IOI, International Office of Immigration. So we had to drive to the airport. When we entered we had to check in first, you first take the bag, they check, you also check in, and after checking in, we had, I think IOI had prepared for us the meal, they bought us some food at the airport, Entebbe International Airport. So we sat for almost six hours while checking in and maybe getting ready, getting used to the airport. Because some of us, we have never been there. Though I was among the lucky people, I had been at the airport, several times. It was not, like, new to me to see things happening at the airport, because I have received many people from the US, from UK, from different parts of the world. I have been used to that airport, like home. So I know every corner before going there. So either to go to the arrival, to the departure, I have been, like, moving everywhere, so I was familiar to the place. And remember by that time, before you come, you are supposed to do Cultural Orientation. But for my family, they did not do Cultural Orientation for the American life. So it was, like, abrupt journey for us. And lucky. So other people, they know, like, how you are supposed to do and behave in the plane. But because I had the memory, I had trained with ARISE Africa, which is an implementing agent united with USCIS. So they are supposed to train all the clients for the journey to America. But for me, I just got the training as an interpreter, then I just used that. Could just brief my family, “We have to do this. This is the Step One, Step Two, Step—” then, until you get there. Then it was eleven, we had to board now. Started boarding the plane, I think, we used the Brussels Airline. Yeah, I can remember, it was Brussels Airline. Then you had to fly for I think eighteen hours. Up to Belgium, then from Belgium, I think we had a stop-over. Then almost one hour in Belgium. Then we were with other people then—because they were supposed to be landing in Chicago, then we left them in Belgium. So we had proceed with Brussels to Washington, DC. Then I think it was so hectic to get to Washington, DC. Yeah, because we stayed for long in Washington, DC. Almost seven hours sitting down. I think we started sleeping. We arrived there at one. Then we left at 10:25 to Pittsburgh. Yeah, everybody was tired, including myself. Yeah, but finally I got 10:25, we are boarding the plane to Pittsburgh. So whereby we found one of our caseworker at the airport with one of my interpreter. So welcomed us. My sisters were already at the airport but not the same place we found the caseworker and the interpreter. So they were another place. They met all at the airport. So we had to move. Up to here, I think we arrived here around one.
S: In the morning?
C: No—yeah. Because we left DC at, like, 10:30. Then Pittsburgh to here. Yeah. We entered this house at one. Because my parents were living up here. So we had to go for supper first. We eat, and they are also excited to see us. Yeah. Like, this house. But we had to come up to here still. Because we were supposed to talk to caseworker briefly. Then they give us time to rest. So we came up here, we stayed I think that’s how it was, generally. But me, the way I see the biggest part was in Washington, DC where we stayed for seven hours. I think it was the one which gave me headache, because I was tired by that time, because we stayed for long in DC. But other places it was just easy. Yeah. But still when you board, it is easy always. To travel take time.
…
S: Mm-hmm. Are you excited to become a citizen so that you can vote and help make decisions about how the government treats people like you?
C: So if that’s like how the system works, maybe we have time, we have to learn how the system works. Because I can’t decide right now because I don’t know what the system say and the procedures. I don’t know so far the procedures.
S: Oh, okay.
C: Yeah, because sometimes they send, like, some of us to feel here. They said these citizen, they can feel this one. But non-citizen, like you, no. This part, you’re not supposed to feel. So maybe with time, when you have all the things, that’s when you know, am I eligible? If I’m eligible, am I also included in the decision-making? That’s when you can learn. But if so, then that’s when you get like your voice, I think. I don’t know if they also respect anyone’s opinion and anyone’s voice. What you say if they respect it, I don’t know.
S: You know, there’s a US Congresswoman who was just elected last year who came to the United States as a refugee.
C: Oh, she’s there?
S: Mm-hmm. So maybe you could be a US Congressperson one day.
C: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
S: Or your children.
C: Yeah, that’s what I was saying. If I don’t become one, I think one of my children should be. [both laugh]
S: Well, is there anything else that you want to tell us that you haven’t already talked about?
C: I think most of the things I have exhausted. Only just I pray that if really people can feel mercy for the refugees in Africa, those who are in the processes, they can try to help them. And if all those who have their relatives—is there any other ways, like the government can put—like, maybe they do family reunion. If there is no other option, can they do the family reunion? That one can be better. If you have, like, your relatives back there, even if they charge you, but still they bring that relative. That can be one great job to do. Yeah. Because when I think about how people are suffering over there, I don’t think life is good. Yeah. I remember the life we went through as refugees. Now when I remember life they are going through this time, and the more refugees include, it’s not easy. Yeah.
S: Well, thank you for your time today and thank you for sharing your story with us.
C: Thank you so much, I appreciate. I’m very happy and so excited to have met you today.
S: Yes, us too. Thank you Celestin.
C: Yeah, say we love you all. [all laugh]
End of Interview
C: Yeah. Briefly, my home—I was born in Democratic Republic of the Congo, which was known previously as Zaire. And I was born in Zaire which is known currently as Democratic Republic of the Congo. But because of the war, I flee to Uganda. But initially I was born in Bunagana. But after the war broke out, I had to flee to Uganda. I was born in—I am the first born of the six children. I have five siblings. We are all settled in Pittsburgh —only one who is—who shifted into Kentucky, the one who follows me. But we are all born six. Thank you.
S: So, when you had to flee to Uganda, everyone went—your whole family went together?
C: No, we were separate. It’s me and my dad who crossed together, but the rest of my siblings crossed with my mom. And it was unfortunate that my mom got injured during the war. But right now she’s lame because of the war in Democratic Republic of Congo. But one of my siblings was born in Uganda, the last born.
S: Okay. So can you tell me a little bit about when the war broke out? What do you think were the reasons for that, and how did it affect you?
C: Yeah, like before the war starts, we are all staying together with good life living. But later when the war broke out, it was in 1996, we started sleeping in the bush. Like, you’d hear a certain village was attacked, they burn the houses, they burn the people inside the houses. We kept sleeping outside almost seven months in the bush. We leave the homes and go and sleep in the bush, hiding ourselves. But it was in 1996, around November, when things became worse. I had gone in the market with my dad. We heard gunshots, bombs, people were killed, and we had to cross—we took three days in order to cross to Uganda, but later after like three days when we journey in Uganda, that’s when—because by that time I was with my dad, then my mom with other four siblings, crossed in different ways. So we did not cross together. But otherwise the life was not effective because we couldn’t know that they are still alive and also they didn’t believe that we are alive. Because for as we are going in the market with my dad and it was hard to know, like, the program. By that time it was unfortunate, we didn’t have phones, like, to communicate to each other. It was by God’s grace that we had to meet again in the transit center where we are supposed to do the registration when we are in the camp. So as you cross, like, there was UNHCR—the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees—we had government of Uganda, Uganda Red Cross Society, were coming—refugees coming in. So that’s how we managed to meet each other again after a period of three to four days.
S: Oh, okay. So not very long.
C: Yeah, it did not take us long to meet again, but because men and women have different lines. So when you are registering, they don’t mix them up. So it was, like, we are on a line and me, I saw my siblings and my mom. I told my dad I am seeing them on the other side. So we are happy by that time, we came together after three days. Yeah.
S: How old were you at that time?
C: I was twelve.
S: Oh goodness, okay. Do you have good memories from before the war broke out, back in the Congo?
C: Yeah. I was schooling. I think I can remember we used to go to school, we play soccer with other young people where we are living together. I used to have many friends. We used to read books. Our teachers, I like them because they were good teachers. They used to teach us. Yes, I remember that moment was good. But when the war broke out, I think things changed. Then we became refugees. But otherwise before the war, everything was well organized. Yeah. Because we would even play inter-schools, like you get one public school plays against another public school. So you go to different schools and play soccer. Maybe like, inter-villages, like South versus West, you go like West, or maybe North. Maybe young people go and play versus others. So I think life was not bad. But when the war broke out, things became worse, and nobody could resist. Because we resist around seven months sleeping in the bush, then things became worse and we had to cross the border and come to Uganda.
S: What did you take with you when you crossed into Uganda?
C: We went empty-handed. We did not go with anything.
S: Just the clothes on your back?
C: Yeah, yes. Like the way I’m putting on today. If anything happens, I just move like this. Nothing to take.
S: So you don’t have any photos of your family from before?
C: No, I don’t.
S: How long did you stay in the refugee camp in Uganda?
C: Uh, before going to the big refugee camp, we had six months in the transit center. Like, in the transit center—this is called the transit center because you stay, like, they have to give you a plastic sheeting. You live together, you have water there. They give you each kind of relief. You get together from the transit center. We stayed there for six months. Then after six months, some people gave up. Some people died during that transitions time because they lack medication, no school there. Then later after six months we are taken—I can remember, it was May 9, 1997—we entered in a big settlement. It is called a settlement because they provide, like, small land where you can plant tomatoes, onions, maybe vegetables. That’s why it’s called a settlement. So the settlement—I said we entered that settlement in May 9, 1997—and we stayed almost twenty-two years.
Yeah. So that’s where life becomes hard. From that May 9, 1997, we started living in the big refugee camp, which they normally call settlement, from 1997 up to 2018 when I came to Pittsburgh. For the life there, it was really really worse. Because many people lost their lives. Many people did not go ahead with the school. Because we had by that time, we had 23,000 refugees in the same camp, in the same refugee camp, and you find two health centers serving 23,000. We have one pre-K school serving 23,000. We have one high school serving 23,000. It’s not easy and I think it was 42 kilometers squared. So now I used to walk around 18 miles to go to school. And it was a hard life. Some of the people could not go ahead and study. Some people gave up. Some people—you find other marriages taking place because I think many people did not try to cooperate with the system and again some people from French-speaking country then go to English-speaking country. So it was not easy and other people—their parents, vulnerables, they cannot raise the funds to take them to different schools. There are other schools, like private schools, but it’s not easy to attend that when you don’t have money. Remember, we are refugees by then. Nothing you have. No money. No clothes. When you are sick, no medication. With the help of the United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees and some implementing agencies, yeah, of course they have been trying to do something, but of course not enough because they don’t have sometimes the fundings. I remember, like after long period of time, we as young people, we came together because we say “we have to be the solution to our problems.” I remember we started a youth group which I still recognize right now. Because to become who I am it’s because of that group and I said earlier when I was leaving Africa to United States—even if I’m not able, I will make sure that I advocate about this youth group. It helped me a lot to achieve some of my goals. And--
S: Was it a religious youth group?
C: Yeah, it is called COBURWAS International Youth Organization to Transform Africa. But it was started by youth group where I was belong. I belong to—and up to now, I still recognize myself as a member in the United States. But this youth group has played a big role to the community of Kyangwali Refugee Settlement, because many students have gotten chance to study through the help of this youth group which started as a youth group—later it registered as community-based organization, and reaching to the time it has registered as a national organization and now it is worldwide. I know it have got a license, it’s now incorporated in the United States, I believe it’s registered in Colorado right now. Yeah. With some of the help, we meet different people, talk about it, and people take interest, like special students come to see what they do, mostly. Yeah, that’s where we managed to raise some of our fellow refugees, young people. Me, I was helped by one of the ladies who came to see, like, what CIYOTA does—that’s COBURWAS—maybe I just write it down as you have time, you will go through their story and you will understand more about it. And for people who may be able to know and to understand more, still they will contact people who can speak maybe more than me and make people understand what they have done. For this time as I’m talking right now, even the UNHCR recognized them because they have done a lot contributing to the lives of refugees. Yeah, connecting some of the students. Some of them—they come, they study from here. But of course, with the intention of giving back to the community.
Because the communities down there is suffering. Refugees in the camps. Like, right now, I know there are one hundred plus. Like Uganda only is carrying 1.3 [million] refugees. So that’s too much. Whereby you can find, like, when they put the ban of the United States not receiving more refugees—I don’t know where they are going. I don’t know how they will survive. Because, I myself, I have my in-laws there. My brother in-laws, my sister in-laws, my father, my mother in-laws, they are all still in Africa. They have their cases, but they have never gone anywhere because of too much back, always. Nothing happening to them. So you find we are worried of how the life continues, and yet more refugees are coming in from Democratic Republic of Congo. Up to now, people are still fighting. People—more refugees coming. So life is not easy as I talk right now. When you go to different countries, you find people are suffering. Not only Congo but also other refugees. As I talk to you know, I remember South Sudan is in trouble. Many refugees are coming in. As I talk to you now, many people from Syria, they are now fleeing from Syria to different countries. So it’s not only Congo, it’s not only Sudan, not Syrians, but different refugees coming from worldwide. So when I see like all that one happening, when you go on Google, you go on the news, you find a lot of things happening, many people becoming refugees. But when I came to America, I think last year around May, from December 2017—very many people have come from Democratic Republic of Congo. Because I was working with one organization which is called Action Africa Help, and it was one of the main implementing agents of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. I was working on assessing on malnutrition, especially for pregnant mothers and young children under five. Almost all the children were malnourished. I don’t know how they are surviving right now. Because when you see a mother, like a pregnant mother, lactating mothers, the children under five, all they are malnourished. So you find all—like when you see the malnutrition which is you find it is high rate, and that is where people find the young children, the pregnant mothers, the lactating mothers, they are all losing their lives. And you find it is all too much.
S: Did your wife give birth to all of your children in the camp? In the settlement?
C: Yes, yes.
S: Can you tell me a little bit about what that was like?
C: Yeah. I think for my wife, the firstborn of course—Baraka Zaire—was born in 2010. I remember it was July 17. Yeah. By that time, for her, she delivered my baby at the health center. It was not bad, I think because I was mostly attached to the health centers and I was working maybe in the health centers. Sometimes some people they are lucky. I call myself, I’m a lucky man. Because I’m mostly have that chance of working in different places and you find someone, like, maybe you work in the hospital, then your person comes where you work so not much fear. And the health workers always attend to the person because they know someone is behind that. But my wife did not suffer like the way I see other people suffer. For her, she was—for all the four children who were born in the same hospital and health center—but not big trouble there.
S: But a lot of people can’t give birth in the health center.
C: Yeah, because they—some people, they don’t have access to the health center. Because you remember, as I said before, 42 kilometers squared. They travel from their home, you go to the health center, it’s very far. Because you don’t have the transport. Other people, they don’t have transport. They deliver even on the way, maybe as they go and they get tired on the way then they deliver from the way. So other people, they don’t even have to go because there is no means. They feel they are—they lost hope. So that’s how things happens. But thank God before my children all were born in the hospital. Yeah. I didn’t have any trouble with any of my children. All of them, they were born in good situation.
S: Celestin, how long did it take from when you first applied to come to the United States—from that initial application—to actually coming?
C: Oh, it takes awhile. For me, I remember I did—in order to prepare my case to be submitted to the USCIS for my interview and security checks, it took almost three years. Because I remember in 2017, that’s when I met with ARISE Africa. It was around August—if not August, then September of 2017. No, July—August—somewhere around there. Because September I think I had met already my young boy was born in September 2017. 2017? No, 2016. Yeah.
Yeah, 2016. You see, I did my ARISE Africa interviews. Those people who prepared the cases to submit to the United States. It’s like an agent working for USA under USCIS. So they work, they prepare cases, then they hand them to the government, then that’s when the government comes in to interview people. So they prepare it in 2016, I think around August—July, August—because I remember we have a very big number by that time. Then we did our ARISE Africa, they prepared it. Then we are supposed to do like, our USCIS interview in February 2017. It was cancelled. The ban start from there. Yeah, when the President, they say no, I don’t want refugees, any more refugees. So that was one year ban. So we did not have the chance, 2017. The whole of it, maybe lucky people could come one by one. But the people who have done previous USCIS interview and security checks and were cleared. So that’s those people who had to fly back in 2017. Few people I think, I guess.
S: How did you feel when you heard about the ban? Were you angry, or disappointed?
C: Oh, oh. Because I was ready for USCIS. Like, I went—when you are in the camp, always they update like when are you going. For us, we had even the appointments. All of us. Many people, around one thousand cases, had gone for the appointment. And a meeting—they call you, like UNHCR—because I was working for UNHCR as an interpreter—so they called all members who are going to have their cases with USCIS. Then they called us to go for the meeting. Then we had that appointment that day, so we were at the office. I was there also, very many. We start now, at the time they said nine. Goes to ten. Ten thirty. Eleven. Now they—UNHCR officials come out to brief people about what is happening. So we are expecting to start, like, I think around February 2017. Then we see these guys coming out, say, “We don’t have good news for you today.” I think everybody some shed tears. “We have bad news today, not good news for you.” People start shedding tears, other people, stronger hearted, they had listened. They say, “We are telling you that because of the new President, this time, no more refugees going until they harmonize. Then, maybe in the future you may be able to travel.” That year ended, well, they briefed us, they said, “Go, do—if you had some activities you are doing, try to do. If you had children in schooling, let them keep schooling. Then, pray to God, maybe he will answer you. If you are going to America, if God has planned for that, you will still go. But we don’t have the solution.” Then we went home, I think many people were broken heart. They didn’t have, like, any more energy, trust, that they can make it to America. Including myself.
Then we went for the full year 2017, we sat home, did our activities, we had given up. Then like in 2017 around October, November, I think around October, November, we had the delegate, I think from the US, she came up to our refugee settlement in Kyangwali. We had meeting with that lady—it’s because I don’t recall the name. She say, “I’m the delegate from the United States of America. I work”—I think she said she works with Senate or something like that, but related to refugees—she said, “We are back in the system and we are assuring you that the process by next year, 2018, the process keeps on going like it was before.” So I think everybody walked out—and I was the interpreter of the day, it was lucky by that time, though they didn’t allow me—because when you are interpreting you can’t ask questions—so I was the one interpreting for the day. So the lady with some people from ARISE Africa—now, we also had another person from the Embassy of the United States in Kampala. Like, around 6 people. And the UNHCR High Commissioner for Refugees had representative from Kampala also, from the head office, had come to join us. So they briefed the people who were there. They did not invite everyone because we had small boardroom. But we had a good number. Like, so if you get a message you need to tell, like, the [unintelligible] that everything is going to be fine. So that’s when now the [unintelligible] comes in, like in 2018, now, they call us again for USCIS interviews. So people go for USCIS interviews, do interviews, then the lucky people like me, the same year after like three months I was in the US. So--
S: How did you feel when you found out it had been approved? That your case was approved?
C: I was very excited to come to America. Because I had—because my siblings and my parents had come 2016, September. So all of them, they came in the month of September 2016. So, like, the youngest boy was born when they had left. The last time Flavia delivered the young Jackson, the young boy, me—I had gone to escort my parents, they were flying—one of my brother, the one who follows me, the one who shifted to Kentucky—but he was here initially, he was living within Pittsburgh, but he shifted to Kentucky—I went to escort him, then I had to wait like, since my parents are flying and my two sisters, the last born and the one—they follow each other—they said they are flying like Sunday night. I said, now since it is Thursday, Friday, now Sunday night, I think I need to wait. I escort them, I shouldn’t go back to Kyangwali in the settlement and come back because that’s too much money. So I said no, I have to wait until they leave. So like that Friday when I’m still waiting after when my brother, the one who follows me, had left—Gerald—then I had the phone call from her that she’s already going to the hospital, she’s going to deliver. I said, “Oh—it’s too much stressing.” Now, I can’t go back to Kyangwali. Then I said, “Go do this work.” I had to try to call, it was around three o’clock afternoon. So I say, “Okay, safe journey.” Like in three hours they call me back, “Ah—we have a baby boy.” I say, [unintelligible]. So life keeps going on. Like, Sunday, after Sunday, then Monday I go back to Kyangwali, then we proceed—continue—with the life. So otherwise I was very excited to come to the United States and I think what I’m worried of is my in-laws who are still there, because there is no hope now since the ban keeps going on. I don’t know if they will be able to. But they have their cases. I try to submit with Jewish Family and Community Services, which was my agent—which has settled me in Pittsburgh through IS [Immigration Services]. So I don’t know what will happen maybe in the future. Maybe they will come, I don’t know. It will depend up to the President, because he is still the chief. Otherwise, life was not easy up to now. I know I’m just looking at the pictures of if I remember, I put myself in that shoe of the people back there, I don’t see any life there.
S: Do you think life is easy now for you?
C: Not very easy, but at least--
S: Easier?
C: At least I have what I need, I guess. Not ever to the extent of, like, maybe I can sit down. But with the life I’m living right now, it’s better compared to the life I was living.
S: What kind of support did you have when you got here—to find a job, to find friends?
C: Yeah, when I get here the Jewish Family and Community Services, they try to resettle me in this place. This is my first place when we came in June 2018. I kept this house, up to now, still living in this house. But they told me there was some money from the government, yeah, they paid for almost three months. Then they had other programs, they earn you from. So they can pay like two months rent. Then you start with new life. They helped me to get a job, and I’m okay with the job. I first went to the first job, but because it was far, I didn’t keep it. Now, where I am working—TruFood, it is good. I like the job, no problem.
S: What are you doing for work right now?
C: I’m machine operator right now at TruFood. But because our line is down, I do different activities. But still I go and maybe if they need someone to help on the machine, maybe anything they want with the machine, because I’m aware of—with the knowledge I have with the machine, I can still go and operate. But because we are many operators, because one of the lines is down, so we can’t all be on the machine. So we do different activities. Sometimes we do palletizing, maybe sometimes we can do parking, because we can’t all be on the machine. Or maybe one person is not there, we go and act like that. Everything is good, I think there is no problem.
S: What is a job that you would like to have in the future?
C: For sure in the future I need to do, like, community services work. Because I feel in me, like, helping different needy people. But with the work I am doing right now it cannot permit me to go, to do what I need. Because as I was saying before, you know people out there, they have a lot of problems and they need people who have knowledge of community services, like, guiding them to do that. But when you go and these things over machine when we don’t have the knowledge of community services. I think it is hard to do that work. But I need to—if I get the chance of getting the school, I think I need to study and do, like, community services related thing. Because back in Africa I did project planning and management. And I would like to do that thing. Like, make it broad so that I see if I have project I can—what should I do, what do I need, like—what do I do to help the community? What should—what do I need, or if I need—like the way I was saying you, that youth group which helped me, which it grow up to the level of the organization. Like, what me—who is in America, what did I contribute toward this group? Because it has helped me a lot, to be whom I am. It’s because of them. Now, what should I do? Like, me? What next? Or what should I tell the world? What can the world do towards this group? Because they still have a lot of challenges, they still need help, they still need support, they need financially, they need connections. Now, am I doing the right thing to connect to them? Am I doing the right thing? Am I having financially? They need a lot. Right now as I talk to you now, they are constructing a youth center which they needed to raise seven thousand US dollars. They have nice students, they have good place for learning, but they don’t have—they are raising money for toilets. They don’t have toilets, which is very important. And in life, if you don’t have the toilet, then you are having nothing. Even if you have knowledge, without where you can use yourself, then you are wasting time. So I think in the future, I don’t need to continue to do the same job. Mostly what I need is to be connected to different people, different companies, different organizations. Maybe different schools, so that everything’s going to be okay in the future.
S: Have you heard of the expression “the American Dream”? It’s the idea that if you work hard then you can do anything you want? Do you know that idea?
C: I don’t know yet.
S: Do you believe that’s true?
C: Yeah, I do.
S: So what’s your dream for life in America? What would you like to create for your children?
C: Especial my children, I need them to be extraordinary. Like, be exposed to the world and do better than what I made—what I have never done, they should be the one to do it. If maybe I were thinking to be someone in the future and I did not reach that goal, I think most of my children should be able to do that. Because if I can’t do it, then my children should do it. Yeah. Like, maybe I dreamed to be a doctor. If I did not be a doctor, my children—at least some of them—should be doctors. Yeah. If I needed to be someone in the top officials in maybe government—if I did not do it, then my children must do it. Yeah. If I was supposed to be maybe a teacher or a lecturer at the university—if it was my dream and I didn’t achieve it, my children must be.
S: How have your children adapted to life in Pittsburgh?
C: Oh, they are doing well. I wish they were here. You talk to them. They would be able to express themselves, I know. They could tell you what they need to do, like, in the future when they’re on their own. They know what to do, they know. As I used to hear my teachers, most of them, they used to tell me—if you are positive in mind and you groom your children the same, you are positive—they also grow in that—they build on your foundation, especial when you tell them “You can do this, you can be this, you can become this.” So they will grow up when they know, “I can be this. I can do this. There is nothing impossible, everything is possible.” They believe that.
So I think that’s how we should always teach our children to be. To excel. Not to fail in the future, or in life. That’s what I believe. And I don’t believe that I fail. I always succeed. I also succeed always. I believe in myself. With the help and connections which we get especially through—like, the way you came—you are here. I never know tomorrow, connecting me somewhere—“Celestin, go somewhere. Do ABCD.” So when Celestin go somewhere, do something, maybe will be productive. Then this one is another road you create. Maybe. You never know. Today you are here. But you feel like you want to study more about refugees, maybe you say, “Celestin, maybe can we move to different place, like maybe another state? Can we go together to Africa and learn more about Africa?” I go and learn about refugees. Yeah, say, “Welcome.” We move. You learn. Maybe in the future, connect to these people, connect to this group. Yeah. Many university students want to learn different stories with refugees. My story may not be like the one of [my friend] Bahati. My story may not be like the one of [my wife] Flavia, because we did not flee in the same transit, in the same year. So for her, she fled in 1998, when I came—I went—I crossed in 1996. So two years later. I think ninety-nine, ninety-eight I think. So yeah, it might be different for me. What I saw, she might not have seen them. Me, I saw many people die. I passed, like, dead people, many. And the blocks of the houses could be, like, bombed them, they are down. People die from there. Like, the customs, they—on that Tuesday, they put it down when we are seeing so many people died there in the offices. So, other people, they might not have seen it. So it was not easy. Many people died in the camp with hunger, without treatment. Some people, they become isolated, nobody is taking care because they don’t have relatives. So you find in the camp many people. Everything is mess. So it is different story from me and other people. So, like, when you meet other people, that’s when you learn. Yeah, this is true. This is reality. This is now. What should we do? That’s maybe the question. Like, next.
S: Do you feel safe here in America, in Pittsburgh?
C: So far, I think I’m safe. Though people here—I think, I don’t know if all the places are like this, but sometimes you find many things occurring. Many people you hear, like, “So-and-so was shot.” I don’t know why. Like, for us—before, we used to think, in America, nobody can shoot you like this. But here, I think it’s common too. With youth, I think. Someone shooting it’s during the evening always. But here, no, what you hear—“So-and-so was shot.” Was it yesterday—Wednesday? Today is Saturday. If not Wednesday, Thursday I think. It is Thursday, Wednesday. Someone was shot here. And the first night—the first two days I arrived here, they killed someone over there. Here, on this block. Ah! I was shocked by that. I spent two days without sleeping. I said, “Now, which America is this?” I come, I know, and the war has stopped, no killing, now—two days here, they kill someone. Ah. I was from work at the Amazon, and I found the police gathered over there. Ah! They said there was someone who was shot the other side. [Redacted] Street, the other side. I said, “What was that?” I didn’t know. I had to know it like the following morning. I didn’t know that would happen. So it is always dangerous, I guess. To hear that thing has happened. Yeah. We fear, but I think they can’t shoot you for any—like, someone can’t—like, I think it is hard to find me in my house and shoot me. Maybe there is some misunderstanding that they have. But they do it, so. That’s where, maybe, some fear comes. Because you never know, anything can happen. But I think, not like Africa. They come like they kill—like if it was Africa, they shoot one person, I think, all of Crafton Heights, everyone should be in for it. If they come, maybe it’s between me and you, here, they just see me and you only. The rest of there, no concern. But in Africa, what I know—if someone has said, “There is a gun shot somewhere,” then the whole village—the whole community—shoo—they sweep you all. They take you. You have to answer that. But here, I think, not the same. That’s another difference I can see. Yeah. But otherwise, I don’t think there is a big problem from my side, since I have never faced any.
S: Have you noticed racism here?
C: I don’t think, because I don’t see it that way. Maybe other places, but I have never experienced that.
S: So you feel like you’re treated well by the community?
C: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No problem.
S: Okay. What do you think Americans should know about your home, about Africa?
C: They should know exactly that people are suffering. They are not okay. Because this, I think—really, if they feel mercy, the people, especially those who are in the camp, in the settlement, they have to help them. If there is really help, they have to help them. Because their life is not easy. And when you are—they say people have spent twenty, twenty-two years, twenty-three years, eighteen years, fifteen years in the camp. Some people were born in the camp, they don’t know what is happening in their country. They don’t even know where they came from. Now, where they expect these people to go? And what do you think they could do? If there is room for them, they should welcome them. Because otherwise they will be suffering too much. And also to get, like, local integration. It’s hard sometimes. You are in the refugee camp, so in order to be local integrated, it takes long. They put the limit. Some people, they fail to. If they call refugees, or if they can join local integration, or if they can be self-repatriation, voluntary repatriation. And that voluntary repatriation, you patriate back home, because the situation is stable. But when the situation is not stable, how do you repatriate back? You go back because the situation is fine. If the situation is not okay, you can’t go back. So at least they should know that out there, people are crying. Africa is only tears. Is nobody who is safe in Africa, especially where I came from. I don’t know more about other places, but where I came from I know everybody is crying and life is no good. So if there is any support, anything they can feel like they can do, those who may be able to read and listen, they can try to help them. You never know—these people, they may also become productive, though they are refugees. Other people, they believe refugees have no say, have nothing to do. But I know they can do something if they are given room to do. Yeah. Many people, many refugees have done a lot. And it’s not because they can’t do it, but they don’t have the opportunities. If they have opportunities, they can do it. I believe that. Yeah. Other people, they believe refugees can’t do anything, but I believe—me, I believe they can do something if they are given room to do it. Yeah.
S: Do you hope to return to the Congo to visit one day, if it’s safe?
C: Ah, maybe if I am—if I become a citizen, maybe that’s when I’ll be able to visit. But when you are a permanent resident, I don’t think you are even allowed to go. But in the future, maybe. Like, I know when you become a citizen, you are free to move anywhere. So by that time, maybe I can think of it and I go. But right now, I don’t have the idea of going there. Maybe, like, since my in-laws are in the camp, if I have a way and if I have my green card, I have the travel document, I can pay them a visit. But in Congo, no. I guess, Congo, no.
S: Do you want to become a citizen?
C: Ah—that’s my prayer. That’s my wish. Yeah, one day I should be.
S: What does that mean to you, for you to be able to call yourself an American?
C: I think it means a lot, because I will be able to—I would be free, I can do anything. Like I can—if you become an American, I think you are free, you can even access to different services, you are not supposed—you are not eligible to. But I think if you are a green card holder, you are not there—some things you are not entitled to. But when you are a citizen, there are other things you are able to access, which a green card holder cannot. So you can be always, I think, you are proud of becoming a citizen because there are other additional services you get from different from what you have been getting as a refugee. As a permanent resident. So I think it is different.
S: Do you still think of yourself as a refugee?
C: Yeah, I count myself as a refugee because I don’t have any document to say that I’m maybe—I’m not yet a permanent resident. I have just applied the permanent resident. So before it is approved, then I’m still called myself a refugee.
S: So, do you think you’ll always think of yourself as a refugee? Or once you get your green card, you’ll think of that as the past?
C: No, I will be at least adjusting on my status. So I don’t think that I will be a refugee by then. I’m somewhere by now.
S: Okay. [both laugh] Can you tell us about maybe a good memory, a very memorable part of your journey to America?
C: Oh, yeah. I remember it was, though it was somehow—it was the first time to be in a plane, so a long journey with children—five—four children. I remember it was around three o’clock, we’re supposed to fly at eleven, African time. So it was around three o’clock, so we had to board the bus from the transit center, prepared by IOI, International Office of Immigration. So we had to drive to the airport. When we entered we had to check in first, you first take the bag, they check, you also check in, and after checking in, we had, I think IOI had prepared for us the meal, they bought us some food at the airport, Entebbe International Airport. So we sat for almost six hours while checking in and maybe getting ready, getting used to the airport. Because some of us, we have never been there. Though I was among the lucky people, I had been at the airport, several times. It was not, like, new to me to see things happening at the airport, because I have received many people from the US, from UK, from different parts of the world. I have been used to that airport, like home. So I know every corner before going there. So either to go to the arrival, to the departure, I have been, like, moving everywhere, so I was familiar to the place. And remember by that time, before you come, you are supposed to do Cultural Orientation. But for my family, they did not do Cultural Orientation for the American life. So it was, like, abrupt journey for us. And lucky. So other people, they know, like, how you are supposed to do and behave in the plane. But because I had the memory, I had trained with ARISE Africa, which is an implementing agent united with USCIS. So they are supposed to train all the clients for the journey to America. But for me, I just got the training as an interpreter, then I just used that. Could just brief my family, “We have to do this. This is the Step One, Step Two, Step—” then, until you get there. Then it was eleven, we had to board now. Started boarding the plane, I think, we used the Brussels Airline. Yeah, I can remember, it was Brussels Airline. Then you had to fly for I think eighteen hours. Up to Belgium, then from Belgium, I think we had a stop-over. Then almost one hour in Belgium. Then we were with other people then—because they were supposed to be landing in Chicago, then we left them in Belgium. So we had proceed with Brussels to Washington, DC. Then I think it was so hectic to get to Washington, DC. Yeah, because we stayed for long in Washington, DC. Almost seven hours sitting down. I think we started sleeping. We arrived there at one. Then we left at 10:25 to Pittsburgh. Yeah, everybody was tired, including myself. Yeah, but finally I got 10:25, we are boarding the plane to Pittsburgh. So whereby we found one of our caseworker at the airport with one of my interpreter. So welcomed us. My sisters were already at the airport but not the same place we found the caseworker and the interpreter. So they were another place. They met all at the airport. So we had to move. Up to here, I think we arrived here around one.
S: In the morning?
C: No—yeah. Because we left DC at, like, 10:30. Then Pittsburgh to here. Yeah. We entered this house at one. Because my parents were living up here. So we had to go for supper first. We eat, and they are also excited to see us. Yeah. Like, this house. But we had to come up to here still. Because we were supposed to talk to caseworker briefly. Then they give us time to rest. So we came up here, we stayed I think that’s how it was, generally. But me, the way I see the biggest part was in Washington, DC where we stayed for seven hours. I think it was the one which gave me headache, because I was tired by that time, because we stayed for long in DC. But other places it was just easy. Yeah. But still when you board, it is easy always. To travel take time.
…
S: Mm-hmm. Are you excited to become a citizen so that you can vote and help make decisions about how the government treats people like you?
C: So if that’s like how the system works, maybe we have time, we have to learn how the system works. Because I can’t decide right now because I don’t know what the system say and the procedures. I don’t know so far the procedures.
S: Oh, okay.
C: Yeah, because sometimes they send, like, some of us to feel here. They said these citizen, they can feel this one. But non-citizen, like you, no. This part, you’re not supposed to feel. So maybe with time, when you have all the things, that’s when you know, am I eligible? If I’m eligible, am I also included in the decision-making? That’s when you can learn. But if so, then that’s when you get like your voice, I think. I don’t know if they also respect anyone’s opinion and anyone’s voice. What you say if they respect it, I don’t know.
S: You know, there’s a US Congresswoman who was just elected last year who came to the United States as a refugee.
C: Oh, she’s there?
S: Mm-hmm. So maybe you could be a US Congressperson one day.
C: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
S: Or your children.
C: Yeah, that’s what I was saying. If I don’t become one, I think one of my children should be. [both laugh]
S: Well, is there anything else that you want to tell us that you haven’t already talked about?
C: I think most of the things I have exhausted. Only just I pray that if really people can feel mercy for the refugees in Africa, those who are in the processes, they can try to help them. And if all those who have their relatives—is there any other ways, like the government can put—like, maybe they do family reunion. If there is no other option, can they do the family reunion? That one can be better. If you have, like, your relatives back there, even if they charge you, but still they bring that relative. That can be one great job to do. Yeah. Because when I think about how people are suffering over there, I don’t think life is good. Yeah. I remember the life we went through as refugees. Now when I remember life they are going through this time, and the more refugees include, it’s not easy. Yeah.
S: Well, thank you for your time today and thank you for sharing your story with us.
C: Thank you so much, I appreciate. I’m very happy and so excited to have met you today.
S: Yes, us too. Thank you Celestin.
C: Yeah, say we love you all. [all laugh]
End of Interview